Jacob Katsof - CEO and founder of AppCow

Episode 30: How to Stand Out in the App World by Being Different with Jacob Katsof

Who is Jacob Katsof and the key takeaways in this episode?

Can education be a hindrance for someone trying to make a mark and be successful? Jacob Katsof can proudly say that it isn’t, and it shouldn’t be. He stands by what Mark Twain once said: “I wouldn’t let school interfere with my education.” And looking at Jacob’s story, a high school dropout, he’s proven that there are other places where you can get “real” education for real life.

In this short chat with Jacob, I’ve picked his brains and have had the privilege to get to know him and what made a simple dropout become CEO and Co-Founder of AppCow. Stick in your earbuds as we discuss:

  • The story behind AppCow and how it all started
  • What Jacob thinks about culture
  • His vision and future plans for AppCow
  • His experience with finding investors and his advice for those who are looking at VC funding

The Questions

[1:52] What made you the person you are today?
Answer: I think a lot of it has to do with positive reinforcements from people who you’re surrounded by, your parents, and also in my case now, my wife of nearly three years. And together with positive reinforcement and just the will to succeed, and an entrepreneurial spirit, you can do anything. What’s worse that can happen, right?

[14:45] Do you think that company culture can accelerate your business? And if you do believe it, can you share with us a story where it has?
Answer: Absolutely. I have a very recent story about how it has accelerated our culture. You know, what we’re very focused on is providing complete value to explorersthat’s how we call our users—to our explorers in app discovery. There’s a lot of negativity in the app ecosystem. A lot of games are being played to get people to install apps. And AppCow takes a different approach. We are user first. We want our explorers to be happy and have the most perfect experience. And to answer your question, how it helped accelerate us, is Jeff Pulver, the Founder of Vonage, early investor in Twitter and Foursquare, we’ve been engaged in conversation, and trying to get him to become an adviser to AppCow. And I want to make sure that I quote him correctly. But the feeling that I was getting in our conversations, or what happened when we had sat down during one of our conversations, was his point on how he doesn’t want to get involved. From his point of view, “I don’t want to get involved in this industry. I don’t like the way it is.” And I was able to naturally, organically, come back by saying, “No, AppCow is different.” Our culture is based around changing the norm of providing value, about making our explorers happy and not tricking them. So that was our culture. I was prepared to give that answer. And because of that, Jeff Pulver today is our advisor.

[26:21] What company do you admire the most as it relates to culture and why?
Answer: I’m going to go with the cheap one here, I’m going to say Google. It’s a cheap getaway, but I feel like they made the first step in saying it’s okay to dress what you like. We don’t care what degree you had or what experience you have. We just care about the potential that you have and I like that.

Culture According to Jacob Katsof:

The way that I see the company culture, the bottom line is that when someone joins the company, and they’re sitting in a room, maybe doing a business deal, and I’m not there, they would know the action and they would know what would be the right or wrong answer in that business deal based on the company culture, based on understanding the company culture.

Go To Quote for Inspiration

Book Recommendations:

  • Citizens of London by Lynne Olson

What Jacob Katsof Wants His Company to BE:

  • BE Different
  • BE Alive
  • BE Happy

Links and Resources Mentioned in this Interview:

Where to Find Jacob:

Connect with John on

FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Ep30 Jacob Katsof

John: Jacob, welcome to BE Culture Radio.

Jacob: Thank you for having me, John.

John: We’re very excited to have you today. You’ve got a great story to tell us. But before we jump in there, I want you to share with our listeners your story, a little bit about you before you got to AppCow, and give us what made you the person you are today.

Jacob: Great, I’m happy to share that story. I’m 29 years old. And to quote Mark Twain, “I wouldn’t let school interfere with my education.” So I happen to be a high school dropout. I launched my first start-up. It was a wholesale retail business and I got the entrepreneurial bug. And I’ve been doing it ever since. I think a lot of it has to do with positive reinforcements from people who you’re surrounded by: your parents, and also in my case now, my wife of nearly three years. And together with positive reinforcement and just the will to succeed, and an entrepreneurial spirit, you can do anything. What’s the worst that can happen, right?

John: Exactly. It sounds like you built a culture for yourself that was one that says “I’m going to do this no matter what.”

Jacob: Yeah, absolutely.

John: That’s very cool. I talk to a lot of people. In 35 years of being in business, I’ve met with a lot of people in Corporate America. I’ve met with a lot of entrepreneurs. And I just embrace the entrepreneurial side of it because I think entrepreneurs get it. Our listeners, a lot of them are entrepreneurs. And I don’t think you have to only be out there on your own to be an entrepreneur. I think there’s a lot of entrepreneurs in business today that work for corporations that are driving their businesses in a unique way, because we ask the question “why” not “what.” And I see from your background, you came up with AppCow. How do you do that? Why did you do that?

Jacob: Yeah, it’s a good question. I approached the CEO of PCS Wireless who at that time was a mutual friend of mine, Ben Nash. And he has his own nice little resume. He’s top 30 under 30, top 40 under 40 in Forbes. He’s built right now what is a billion dollar company. And when I reached out to him, he was 29 years old. It was a few years ago. And PCS is a thousand-employee company. They sell phones. And I said, “I think that we can make money by preloading apps onto your phones. Would that interest you?” And he said, “Sure. Why don’t you come by?” So we started to work at PCS. He gave me a little bit of equity in what I was building, which is what excited me as an entrepreneur. And when I was there, I got to understand really a major problem for app developers – looking to get users. And with that problem, it spells it out in the industry. Last year, it was $3.6 billion were spent on app developers trying to buy users. Why do they buy users?

John: Wait a minute, say that again so that my listeners hear you.

Jacob: Yeah, absolutely. So last year, 2014, $3.6 billion worth.

John: $3.6 billion.

Jacob: Right. It’s expected to double by 2020. It’s expected to add another billion dollars in 2015 to be at $4.6 billion. And what’s driving that spending is that there are over 2 million apps just in the Google Play Store. So even if you made it past the gap, you put it there, how will anyone find you? So you have to spend money. So a market has been created where app developers will pay advertising dollars for people to find them. All of those advertising dollars are being spent in the cloud. And when working at PCS, I said, “Wait a minute. Here we are selling tens of millions of phones, and here, these companies are selling the phone to the user, why don’t we allow an app developer to engage with the user when they buy the phone?” So let’s take some of this spending, this $3.6 billion of spending and let’s funnel it through a new channel, which is also, in my opinion, I think, a channel that also makes sense. You’re engaging with someone to install apps when they have the intent to install apps. Because what does someone do when they buy a new phone? You install apps.

John: That’s the very first thing, or you call—for me, I call my 23-year-old son and my 21-year-old daughter and say, “Help. God, somebody help me.” Or I call Rick in my company, I surround myself with millennials so that I appear brighter than I currently am. And I say, “Someone please help me with this.”

Jacob: Right. Well, I’m glad you brought that up because it actually leads into some of our bigger pictures with AppCow. But not to get lost on that note, that’s when the idea really forms. And then, it fully evolved into what it is today. But in July of 2014, it got to a point where it would make the most sense for both PCS Wireless and for AppCow, we would become our own entity and be viewed as a tech start-up. So it was founded as a private investment. PCS does its own – has some minor, non-controlling interest in the company. And now, it’s built as a tech start-up.

John: Now, was that your “aha” moment, was that your tipping point? Was that the time, when you were at PCS, when you were like – the lights went on for you? Or was there another something else that led you to do that, or was it a series?

Jacob: The “aha” moment, it was a series. It started with, “Okay, well, we can engage users when they get their phones.” So let me put a little “how do we do that?” How do you get a user to install a phone outside the cloud? You can’t exactly hand someone an app, right? So the idea was let’s put a plastic insert into a box. So pretend that a lot of the people could get phones, say, online, maybe through Amazon, maybe through eBay. And a lot of companies that are selling through Amazon, they handle the shipping of the phone themselves. They have their own warehouse. They have their own management team. So they list it on Amazon, but they ship it. So why not just put a business card into the box? When the customer gets their phone, there’s this little card that says, “Go get an app. Scan the QR code and get the app.” That’s what we tried at first, and it was a complete failure. It was maybe one or two cards out of 20,000 that were shipped out that got used. And my “aha” moment was, of course—it was us driving in a car and I said, driving back from a long day at work—and I said, “Of course, it failed. I wouldn’t use a card that was given to me in a box.” And I said, “What if it was a Starbucks card?

John: I’d use that. We’d all use it. Yeah, man, in a heartbeat.

Jacob: So then, I said, “Well, how can I get a Starbucks card?”

John: Doesn’t everybody want a Starbucks card?

Jacob: Everyone wants a Starbucks card. Exactly. But what we did with our Starbucks card was, I said, “Well, I need to add value.” That was the point, we need to actually make it so that this card has value. And that’s what we did. So that was the “aha” moment. But to continue really with—to evolve the story—really how I was able to spin out of PCS, and launch AppCow on my own. I just want to make sure that I give my beautiful wife credit. When I finally got the authorization from PCS to make the move, I made a call to my wife and I said, “Babe, I’m going to give up my salary. We’re going to go on this entrepreneurial journey. Well, this is the option that we have. What do you think?” And without asking any questions, without saying let’s talk about it at home, no, she just said, “I trust in you. Go for it.” And that was also part of my “aha” moment.

John: Yeah, you need someone with some really strong belief in you to succeed, I think so. Jacob, I shared with you, I worked for Corporate America for many years and I rose to the executive level. And I was running the company, and she came home one day and she said, “You are just miserable.” And I said, “Well, I really, really dislike what I do.” I said, “The people, I love the people, but I hate what I do.” So about two months later, I came home one day with a big smile in my face. She said, “What are you so happy about?” I said, “I quit.” She goes, “Okay, you didn’t have to take me literally.”

Jacob: Oh no.

John: Yeah. Alright, maybe not the way she wanted it done. I said, “Well, you told me to make myself happy, so I did.” But go ahead, man. I’m interrupting. I just had to throw it in there.

Jacob: Oh no, I’m happy we share a similar story there, or the same result, at least. Well, now, are you more happy? Do you come home when she still says “You look miserable?”

John: No, she’s my business partner. And she, for the last 15 years, we have created this company that is different than anybody else in our segment. And we’re one of one. And we wanted to build an organization where everybody mattered, and everybody was valid, and everybody was equal. And it didn’t matter if you were paid more than the next person. Your opinion didn’t count more. So on a regular basis, I’m told how little I know by the people that surround me. And I graciously accepted that and asked for their help. And then, that way, I’m successful. And I love what I do and I love the people I do it with. So it’s a great ride. It’s a great trip doing this. And as we put the media side of our business together, with BE Culture Radio and Nick Bulwin, it’s just more exciting adventures for me and our firm, and our people, to create an environment where everybody wins.

Jacob: Right.

John: And so, I could never get that in Corporate America, because a few won, everybody else served, and then there was other people who lost. And I just didn’t think the world should be that way. I wasn’t raised that way. And I didn’t want to be that guy.

Jacob: Right.

John: So I had a great partner and a great wife who said, “We can create a world in which everybody matters. And we can change the world one person at a time.” And she lives by the mantra, “Be the change you wish to see.” So every time I find that my beliefs and my core values, and my goals, don’t align, I’m off the track. So as I’ve gone through these 55 years of my life, I find a great deal of solace and satisfaction in making sure my beliefs, my core values, my goals are always in alignment. And I just try to live simply from that perspective. So to answer your question, I’m happy.

Jacob: Good. Because with the wife as a business partner, now you’re fully invested.

John: Oh yes. I work for her and I’m quite comfortable with that. See, I have six sisters so I was housebroken before I got delivered.

Jacob: That’s a good way to put it.

John: And my sisters told my wife, “There’s a no return policy on him.”

Jacob: That should have been the first red flag.

John: Yeah, for her. It was a great day for me. For her, not so much.

Jacob: That’s pretty neat, six sisters. Wow.

John: And I’ve got a great brother. He and I have stood shoulder to shoulder, and fought the battle. We never win, but we put up a good fight. And pretty soon, our sisters would say, “When will the two of you going to just give up? Just submit and understand you’re a lower life form.”

Jacob: Oh god. Yeah, I’m also one of eight.

John: Really, that’s cool.

Jacob: But it’s four on four, thank god. I could not imagine having six sisters.

John: I wouldn’t have it any other way. I can cook. I can sew. I can dance. And my sister can beat up almost anybody, my big sister is – So I grew up as a kid that if I got bullied, my big sister was coming. And she would beat the hell out of you. And so, what are you going to say when a girl beat you up?

Jacob: You don’t tell anyone that, yeah.

John: Right. So I had a charming life. I wouldn’t trade it for the world because it taught me so many life lessons, as I operate in today’s economy. And I share with a lot of our listeners. Now, Jacob, it’s that I’m able to see the world differently than anybody else who is from my same generation. I happen to be married to an African-American woman, have the six sisters, so I see the world very differently, through a very different lens, than most people. So as I like to say to a lot of people, don’t judge a book by its cover because you don’t know what’s inside.

Jacob: That’s right. That’s important. I try to, when someone upsets me either through walking in a supermarket or driving a car, I just try to remind myself, I don’t know what kind of day they’re having. Just take a step back and try not to get angry at the person because who knows what’s going on?

John: You never know. And life is too short. I live by what my mother and father taught me. My father is a very wise man. He once said to me, “Son, you can’t fix stupid.”

Jacob: Sounds like a Forrest Gump quote.

John:  It is. So I just look at people and I smile. You’re amazed by the silly things people say and do. And you just go, “okay,” and you just move on. And you know, one thing my wife taught me a long time ago is that you’re not required to engage with anyone, and you’re not required to engage with their point of view. It’s theirs, let them own it, and move on if you don’t agree. You’re not going to bring them around.

Jacob: No, you’re not.

John: Let me jump in here for a minute and ask you a question.

Jacob: Sure.

John: Tell me what your definition of “company culture” is?

Jacob: So I want to make sure that I understand this question correctly. So if I go off topic, please feel free to cut in. The way that I see the company culture, the bottom line is that when someone joins the company, and they’re sitting in a room, maybe doing a business deal, and I’m not there, they would know the action and they would know what would be the right or wrong answer in that business deal based on the company culture, based on understanding the company culture.

John: Okay. And do you think that company culture can accelerate your business? And if you do believe it, can you share with us a story where it has?

Jacob: Absolutely. I have a very recent story about how it has accelerated our culture. You know, what we’re very focused on is providing complete value to explorersthat’s how we call our users—to our explorers in app discovery. There’s a lot of negativity in the app ecosystem. A lot of games are being played to get people to install apps. And AppCow takes a different approach. We are user first. We want our explorers to be happy and have the most perfect experience. And to answer your question, how it helped accelerate us, is Jeff Pulver, the Founder of Vonage, early investor in Twitter and Foursquare, we’ve been engaged in conversation, and trying to get him to become an adviser to AppCow. And I want to make sure that I quote him correctly. But the feeling that I was getting in our conversations, or what happened when we had sat down during one of our conversations, was his point on how he doesn’t want to get involved. From his point of view, “I don’t want to get involved in this industry. I don’t like the way it is.” And I was able to naturally, organically, come back by saying, “No, AppCow is different.” Our culture is based around changing the norm of providing value, about making our explorers happy and not tricking them. So that was our culture. I was prepared to give that answer. And because of that, Jeff Pulver today is our advisor.

John: That’s cool. That had to be quite a monumental moment when that happened.

Jacob: It felt really good. It was a monumental moment for us.

John: You know, you talked about culture just a moment ago. And you talked about how you deliver value. And that’s part of your core beliefs as being different. It almost sounds as if being different is being disruptive to the industry, to hack the industry to show that there’s a better way to do it. And that resonates so well with us at BE Furniture and on BE Culture Radio that I just wanted to salute you for doing what other people are frightened to do. Because, Jacob, not everyone’s willing to put it out there and do it.

Jacob: I don’t reinvent the wheel. What I like to do is because I’ve been an entrepreneur for 10 years. I also have 10 years of seeing how many things can go wrong. I’ve experienced a lot of that. So what I see a lot of value in is in surrounding myself by smart advisors. Everyone’s smarter than me. And also, embedding myself in all the material and data, and videos, and books, and blogs that are available, that are so much. So I like to listen to successful C-level or founders of unicorn companies, and how they did it. And they talk a lot about culture. And that’s the difference between a company that’s making $10 million a year versus a company with a billion dollar valuation. They all have the same thing. They all have the product. They all have the market. They may have the idea, the drive, but I think it’s culture that defines the really successful companies from just a nice lifestyle business.

John: Absolutely. They go back to the book, “Good to Great.” The biggest threat to being great is being good, because we’re happy. “Yeah, it’s okay. We’re good,” versus striving to be great. We talk about culture and we talk about it on the show all the time. And I’ve had the unique experience and honor of speaking to over 60 entrepreneurs and CEOs of great companies. And my takeaway has been this: they talk about the emotional side and the human side of it but they all drive back to the environmental side, the facility side of it, and what their brand looks like. And so my question to you is, when you look at someone’s facility, and you look at their office designs, how do you think that helps in regards to engaging the staff they have and attracting the millennials and the new talent, and retaining a talent you currently have? How does that all go together for you?

Jacob: I think it haslike what you said earlieryou shouldn’t judge a book by its cover, but the people do default too bad. And when you walk into an office or you’re at a trade show, the first thing you’re going to see is their furniture or their clothes. And you’re going to make a judgment on that. So I do think it is very important. And then aside from that, personality does shine through. And company culture does shine through, the furniture, clothes or the look of your office. And I personally give a lot of attention to that. We’re still an early stage company, so it’s not like we’re spending a lot of money on furniture. But I make sure that all of our team members have T-shirts or little picture frame with our logos and our colors, and our AppCow swag, because we’re proud, the AppCow. We love AppCow. So any way that we can show that and make people smile with it, it makes us happy and I think that people see that and feel that.

John: I absolutely believe they do. In the last 30 years, and specifically in the last 15 years at BE Furniture, we had been involved with a lot of emerging companies. And we do a lot of education. And we try to stay away from the commodity selling because I don’t think that adds any value to the emerging company. And to your point, you don’t need to spend a lot of money to make sure you look appropriate. But you do need to make a prudent investment. And we take people a time, and I’ve told this story about different types of seeding you give an employee, and what kind of environment. Did you put them in a cubicle farm or did you do take the same product application and make it cool for the same amount of money? But someone had to work with you and be creative and think and help you spend those same dollars to send a message to the people that you’re entrusting with your future, those people called your employees, your business partners, the ones that make it happen. Are you really taking the time to spend your money, and to bring people in that will help you do that? And I’m always amazed that people say, “Well, I’ll just do this. I’ll just do that.” I’m like, “Well, hold on. These are the people that make it happen for you. Make sure you take care of them.” And it doesn’t mean, go crazy and spend money like a drunken sailor either. It means prudently and well invest, and give people quality. It’s like you talk about dressing, you don’t have to wear $300 shoes. There are $70 shoes that are just fine, that work, are beautiful. You’ve just got to go and know where to get them, right?

Jacob: Well said.

John: So I look all the time at companies. And I always ask people like yourself, what is your next major investment to grow your company and take yourself to the next level?

Jacob: Right. Is that a question to me?

John: That’s the question, yeah.

Jacob: What would be the

John: What are you looking to do, your next capital investment that moves your company, the next big move that we can see from AppCow? Is there something on the horizon you would share with us?

Jacob: Yeah. I think to answer your question, the next big move in capital spending, once we do raise money, would be to open up a central location to bring everybody in office and bring all of our team members, which we are five now, so that we can all work in one location.

John: That means a lot. Hey, Jacob, take my listeners through the process that you’re going through to raise money, and that’s on the horizon for you. And I think you’ve been through it before, getting investors. Can you share a little insight with our listeners as to what that’s like?

Jacob: Yeah, absolutely. It’s very important if you are not familiar in this tech world that you become familiar very quickly. What I did is, I bought one book that had a big impact on my life, written by Brian Cohen, who’s an angel, and it’s “What Every Angel Investor Wants You to Know”. Go get that book, read it. It’s more than I can ever tell you. What you need to do is just make sure that you’re doing things that benefit your company, that you’re properly prepared, that you are giving information not that you want to give, but what they expect to receive. So you might have a great company, you may have a great product, maybe doing everything right, but if you don’t explain it properly, and you don’t meet with the right people, you’re going to be spinning your wheels.

John: Now, give my listeners some advice. We have a lot of listeners that are trying to build a brand, build an organization. What advice would you give them and what tip would you give them and say, “Hey guys, if there’s one thing you’re going to do, do this thing.” What would that thing be?

Jacob: Don’t give up.

John: That’s really important. What do they say, about 90% of people who failed gave up right before they were about to succeed?

Jacob: Yeah, it’s always the last place you look that you find what you lost. Well, of course, it’s the last place, but it’s really deeper than that. It’s “Don’t give up.” Everyone you’re going to speak to, you’re going to have people that say “Yes, you did that.” You’re going to have that debt. You’re going to have people that tell you, “You can’t do it.” You have to believe in yourself. You’ve got to push. You’ve just got to push. You’ve got to push. You’re going to have your highs. You’re going to have your lows. It’s not like the movies; there’s no montage of an idea, and then success, and then parting; it’s years. And if you truly believe that what you’re doing is the right thing, and you have a market, you just have to keep pushing. And what I like to say is don’t be afraid of failure. I’d prefer to fail than to regret not trying. And if you can put that in your mindset, to say, “I’d rather fail than regret not trying,” then nothing will stop you.

John: I agree. I always like to say I’ve never really failed. I’ve just had some experiences that cost me a lot more money than others.

Jacob: Well, mine was my college education that I didn’t go to.

John: You know, I tried for a couple of years. It wasn’t for me either. I said, “I’ve got to get out of here.” Hey, let me ask you something. What’s the one thing you see emerging businesses, entrepreneurs, more at this point, do over and over again that you just shake your head and say, “Don’t do that. Stop,” and we see it over and over again? Could you share with us what is that you see happen over and over again?

Jacob: With emerging businesses or—

John: More entrepreneurs, like what you see the entrepreneur doing that you say, “You shouldn’t do that.” And it’s common, and you’re commonly seeing. It’s just a little tip and you’d say, “Guys, leave that alone.”

Jacob: Yeah, I think that I see entrepreneurs, they get very focused on their particular equity. And they get very stingy with it. And what you have to remember is 100% of nothing is nothing. And you should use your equity like pieces on a chess board. And don’t hoard it. I’d rather have 5% of something huge than even 50% of something, even half as big. I’m here to make a difference in the world, not just to make money.

John: Well said. Very well said. Jacob, I want to take you to the lightning round now and ask you a couple of quick questions and get your feedback on them.

Jacob: Sure.

John: Now, is there a book—you were talking about a book a little while ago—but is there a book that changed your life?

Jacob: Well, yeah. What I did mention, I guess that would change my life recently as it did have a big impact on raising money. But outside of that, a book that actually changed my life, I think, is “Citizens of London” by Lynne Olson which was a book that had some impact on me. It’s a history book with a lot about Winston Churchill and his inner circles, but nothing too exciting.

John: Okay. Now do you have a quote you go to for inspiration?

Jacob: Yes, I do. And it actually is a Winston Churchill quote. And that is “Continuous effort – not strength or intelligence – is the key to unlocking our potential.”

John: Wow, I like that. Now, what company do you admire the most as it relates to culture and why?

Jacob: What company do I like the most that relate to culture and why. I’m going to go with the cheap one here, I’m going to say Google. It’s a cheap getaway, but I feel like they made the first step in saying it’s okay to dress how you like. We don’t care what degree you have or what experience you have. We just care about the potential that you have. I like that.

John: Me too. Now, tell our listeners why someone should want to work for AppCow?

Jacob: Well, we’re going to be a billion dollar company. So if you want to get at the early stages, now is your chance. What I care about when someone comes into the company is what do you, you, who are joining AppCow, where do you want to be in five years? And let’s see if we can get you there through AppCow. So if whatever it is that you enjoy doing, that’s what I want you to do. Whatever it is you love doing, that’s what I want you to do. Let’s help you build your skills while you’re doing that, while we grow AppCow. And then eventually, we can even do what you plan to keep on doing.

John: I like that. That’s a very unique way to look at it. And I think my listeners, those that are entrepreneurs, I think that if Jacob resonates with you, you should reach out to him. And he’s going to give us at the end of the show how to reach out to him. Here we go with the final question. It’s a big one. If you had to describe your culture of AppCow in three words, what would it be? So give me three adjectives, but start with “BE,” for example, BE inspired. Give me three, Jacob.

Jacob: Yeah, it would BE different, BE alive, BE happy.

John: BE different, BE alive and BE happy. I like that. Hey, I just want to thank you so much for taking the time to come on our show. How can our listeners connect with you?

Jacob: Either you can look me up on LinkedIn, @JacobKatsof, I’m the only one. Or you can e-mail me, it’s jacob@app-cow.com.

John: Perfect. Are there any rollouts that you want to tell us about from your firm coming up soon that we should keep an eye and look out for?

Jacob: Rollouts, yeah. We’re releasing a new app update over the next 48 hours. You can look out for that. And we’re going to be exhibiting at Hackathon in a couple of weeks. I can give the information for anyone who wants to contact me about that. And we’re looking to fill a couple of roles, people who want, who fit, our culture. So, feel free to reach out to me.

John: Perfect. Hey, Jacob, I never end a show without sharing with my guest my favorite quote from Maya Angelou which is, “People will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel.” And I hope we made you feel welcome and valid today. And I want to thank you for taking the time to come see us, spend some time with us. I know your time is valuable. You’re building a great organization. For all my listeners, support Jacob in his efforts. It’s a great organization, a great company. Hey, Jacob, in your travels, if you run across someone you think would be great for our show, send them my way. And I’d like to invite you back in six months, so you can give us an update on how you’re doing. Would you do that?

Jacob: Absolutely, John. It was a real honor and a pleasure. Thank you.

John: Thanks so much. Best of luck and be well, my friend.

Jacob: You too.