Episode 18: Why You Don’t Need a College Degree to be a Successful Leader with Tim Stevens

Who is Tim Stevens and the key takeaways in this episode?

Getting a college education is important, but any person of character, dedication, perseverance and integrity has an equal opportunity to be a great leader. In today’s episode, our guest, Tim Stevens’ will share with us his story of how having no college degree was never a hindrance for him to serve and to lead, or even to write a book. Be sure to listen to the whole conversation as this is surely an insightful chat. To give you a brief overview, we talked about:

  • How he was able to compile over 30 years of leadership learning ideas
  • How he became an author
  • His thoughts on leadership and why many fail at it
  • What he thinks about startup founders

The Questions

[5:34] What was your ‘aha’ moment? What was the tipping point for you, Tim?
Answer: Maybe when I was nineteen, twenty, twenty one somewhere around then, I realized that these are leadership, administrative, strategy, visioning gifts that God has given given me. I could use these to make a difference in people’s lives and that really was like a “Aha” moment when it was like, “Okay, I can be involved in something significant, something that makes a difference, something that really adds to the faith part of people’s lives, and I can do that through using these gifts that God has given me. I don’t have to be someone I’m not.

[10:38] I’ve read that you’ve compiled 30 years of leadership learning and practical ideas in one easy to read book. Can you share with us a little bit, how did you get there?
Answer: I think for me, I just have never stopped asking questions. I think that probably the key was when I was making the decision to continue on in my career and not go back and get my college education. I sat down with several people that were smarter and wiser and much further along than me and they kind of picked my brain and I picked theirs.

[14:02] What do you see is the biggest disconnect today, with leaderships in the corporations and where we are as a community, as a whole, today?
Answer: I would say maybe focusing on, I think, companies which mess up are focusing on profit versus culture. And I know every business needs to figure out a way to pay the bills to create the employees to be profitable, non-profit must also figure out how to keep the numbers on the right side of the ledger. But I think if you mess up and you think that profitability is your key to a strong culture versus how a strong culture and the right people and pouring into them is actually the key to profitability. I think that getting those two messed up will mean the difference between a short lived and a long lasting organization.

Culture According to Tim Stevens:

I think you know, there’s positive culture. Every company has culture, right? So there are positive cultures and there are negative cultures and probably my guess is your listeners have experienced both and can probably give an illustration of both. When you have been in a company where you have been paid a lot of money but you go home stressed out and you don’t look forward to the next day and you hate every moment of it, then you realize okay you are in a toxic culture and it is just not worth it. You are thinking about how, and many people done this, they leave that, and they make much, much less money but they are so much happier because they get into a place where there is a great culture, and where there is a low turnover,people are happy and the leaders aren’t insecure.

Go To Quote for Inspiration

Tim’s Book

fairness is overrated book by Tim Stevens

What Tim Stevens Wants His Company to BE:

  • BE Humble
  • BE Generous
  • BE Inquisitive

Links and Resources Mentioned in this Interview:

Where to Find Tim Stevens:

Connect with John on

FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

John: Hi Tim, welcome to the show.

Tim: Hey, glad to be here.

John:    It is quite an honor to have you. Just so all my listeners know, Tim is a pastor, and an author and leader in the community and we are very grateful that he will spend some time with us. But Tim, before we jump into that, maybe you can give us a little background for all of our listeners on where you came from and the journey that brought you to where you are at.

Tim:  Yeah, thanks for asking. I grew up in Iowa and after high school I joined…

John: Wait a minute, where in Iowa?

Tim: Des Moine, Iowa. Pleasant Hill, actually, was the city.

John: Did you ever heard of Bill Reichart?

Tim:   Yes, I have.

John: He’s my uncle.

Tim:   Okay, I mean I heard the name. Is he in Iowa?

John:    He was from my… actually a little history for you, just a little bit about me. My grandparents and both my parents, my father is from Newton, my mother is from Iowa city. My grandfather started the Iowa Hawkeye Club. My father and my uncle both played for the University of Iowa. So Iowa runs through my veins. BE Furniture is an H and I distributor of Iowa. So I just can’t get away from Iowa. Now I got you that is exciting too.

Tim:   We have a connection.

John: Go ahead; I’m sorry to interrupt you.

Tim: No, that is great. So I joined up with the organization right out of high school and kind of I thinking that I am going to do this between high school and college and ended up staying for nine years working up through the ranks of the organization and in the leadership, to able to kind of help really run the organization towards the end of that. Then I really felt this kind of call to, I’ll talk more about this I’m sure, but this call to pastoring in a church and so did that for the next twenty years up until just last summer. And then just last summer joined up with a group called Vanderblumen Search Group where I get to spend all day every day helping churches and organizations find great staff and find the next person to lead them on to success.

John:    Now Tim, share with us how do you feel coming from Iowa, great place to come from I might want to add, how do you think it shaped you to be the man you are today?

Tim:       Boy, that is a great question because that is the only upbringing that I have had, and have nothing to relate it to and compare it to. But I do think it is hard to know whether your environment shaped you or whether it was, you know, as far as geography, or whether it was family environment or what it was that shaped you the most but I think I grew up with a great work ethic and principles, and just had some great role models around me both in my parents and then the people that they surrounded our family with. I know they really shaped a lot of what I have based my life on today.

John:    Okay Tim, I refer to all my listeners here, I have call my tribe, I am one of eight, and mom and dad are still alive. God bless them. They are in their mid-80s. They have been married sixty five years. I’m blessed to have the most special person in my life and my partner and my girlfriend and my wife all in one person.

Tim:  It is nice that it is one person.

John:    It is great. I still get butterflies when I see her, thirty years later. But I think that grounds people. I think it gets people a sense of where they come from. I talked about it a great deal that we have tribe and if you come from a strong tribe, it gives you a strength that you can pull on in times of adversity. What do you think about that?

Tim:  I totally agree with that. I was reflecting on how my grandma died a few years back that I don’t, as far as my side of the family goes, know of anyone who has been divorced. It has been very long lasting marriages, very committed relationships. It is the kids who take care of their parents as they are aging. It just really I totally agree with that there is a strong kind of ethics in that and it is a privilege. It is an honor because I know a lot of people don’t share that heritage.

John:    It is amazing and you know what I also find woven in there – it’s God. I was asked the other day, “What book changed your life?” I said, “The Bible.” There is a long pause, Tim, I didn’t know what to say and I’m like, “and…” I said, “I’m not going to apologize for my answer.” I feel very strongly about this. We could stop talking, however it did change my life in a way I look at the world.

Tim:  Definitely.

John:  So now today we are going to talk about how fairness is overrated and what is this secret sauce for creating and maintaining a vibrant and successful workplace and you share with us where you came from, but what was your “Aha” moment? What was the tipping point for you, Tim, when you said, “I get it.”

Tim: I think early on I was talking about faith a little bit, but I sensed in high school that I wanted to be involved in the ministry and making difference to people’s lives but my exposure to that at that point was that people who were involved in that were either missionaries, and I know I didn’t want to do that, or they were worship leader, music people, and I was not a musician, or they were pastors who preached every week. And I thought “you know what, I don’t think I’m that guy either.” So I was kind of conflicted about that and there was probably an “Aha” moment maybe when I was nineteen, twenty, twenty one somewhere around then when I realized that I had these leadership, administrative, strategy, visioning gifts that God had given me. I could use those to make difference in people’s lives and that really was like a “Aha” moment when it was like, “Okay, I can be involved in something significant, something that makes a difference, something that really adds to the faith part of people’s lives and I can do that through using these gifts that I have got that God has given me. I don’t have to be someone I’m not.”

John:    I can tell you, our listeners would be, I think, very uplifted to know. Here is a guy talking about how to make a difference and you live it every day and one of the statements that you make and you live is that the most important human relationship in your life is your wife, Faith. Faith Stevens. You know, it has got to make her proud, right?

Tim:   I’d like to hope so.

John:    And so it’s like God is first and my family is second and I’m third. And so I see you live that as you talk about your wife and you hold her in the highest esteem and you talk about your children. What I find interesting is that you talked about… Tim doesn’t talk about Tim, which is really unique when you find a lot of people that talk about themselves and we live in that self-absorbed world, and I just think, today, if you create an environment where you can create a random act of kindness and help others then everything else will fall into place for you.

Tim:       Yeah, I totally agree and I would take that moment just to kind of raise them up a little bit because they are amazing and I tell people that, you know, you used to be my kids needed me obviously to feed them, clothe them but now you know they are twenty one, twenty, seventeen and fourteen and I really need them. I really cherish those friendships as relationships that we have developed and doing that with my wife and being able to, you know, grow old together long after the kids are completely gone and so we are building that relationship first, the kids second, and it’s been a great ride.

John:    It sounds to me that you build a foundation. I share with people that my kids are all now in college and in their twenties, and we are fortunate to have a special needs child who is the love of our life but people say to me all the time that, “Gee, how do you do it?” I look at people and I’m like, “There is not a choice, there is a right way and there is a wrong way and you get out of it what you put into it.” And so as you say, you know, my wife and I are going to grow old together but our kids will maintain that bond with us. People say to you as parents, “do you talk to your kids a couple times a week?” “Yeah,” I was like, “but it’s for me, not for them.”

So your point is like, “Okay, right when they are little they needed me. Now I’m older I need them.” You put it so very, very well. I think our listeners will be very, very interested because for twenty years you have pastored and now you have helped shape “fairness is overrated”, right? You are the CEO of a Fortune 100 company. You see CEOs of Fortune 100 companies. Tell us a little bit more about that because there is a whole business side of you that goes with your spiritual side.

Tim:       Yes, so really my history in this twenty year run in this church was going into the kind of like a start-up. If if you do have CEOs or entrepreneurs who are tuned into this: think of this as start-up. I was the fifth staff member. We didn’t have any facility or rented space as a church start-up and we had about two hundred people gathered, and then we fast forward twenty years later and give you a glimpse of that church which was about five thousand. We had a hundred and twenty nine people and staff.

We had lot of both property and facilities and campuses, and a very highly complex organization with locations in several different places and the work that we are doing, the church start-ups that we are building across India and campuses that we are doing across Northern Indiana, so we were getting from a start-up to a highly complex organization. It’s just that there is so much carry over into business and, as you know, in the church many of my friends and the people that I, kind of, hang with are business owners and people starting businesses and companies, and others who were leading long lasting businesses and so just as I began to poke around this there are so many of the leadership principles that are required in the non-profit and the for profit business are very much… there are so much carry over there. And so much that can be learned from that and that is when I began to write some of those things down.

John:    Now I read that you compiled thirty years of leadership learning and practical ideas in one easy to read book. Can you share with us a little bit, how did you get there? I mean it is great to read, but I guess my mind went to “how does the guy do that?”

Tim: Yeah, I think for me, I just have never stopped asking questions. I think that probably the key was when I was making the decision to continue on in my career and not go back and get my college education. I sat down with several people that were smarter and wiser and much further along than me. As they picked my brain and I pick theirs, they said, “You know what, Tim.” They said, “You are kind of wired as a lifelong learner. You know, some people need college because they need a certain degree to do what they are going to do. They are going to be an engineer, they need a certain degree. Some people need college because they don’t have your work ethic and brain. They don’t have certain practices and skills and some need that kind of structured environment in order to learn.”

And they said, “Tim, where you are going, none of those things are true.” And so they encouraged me to kind of continue on the path I was on and I’m so glad that I did. It just built up from there. I just never stop asking questions. I’m always wanting to learn and I’m always realizing I’m not the smartest guy in any room I walk into. I get to learn whether it is someone who is just starting out in their career, twenty years younger than me or they are twenty years older than me. I get to learn something from them and I think that sense of just how I structured my leadership thought, I think, has enabled me to learn just so much and gain so much from the others around me.

John:    So can we talk about the book a little bit and share with our listeners a little bit about the book, what your feelings are and how you arrived at delivering it.

Tim:       Yeah, so “Fairness is overrated” is kind of a compilation of fifty two leadership thoughts and principles. It’s highly tangible; I’m not an academic. I don’t think in theory. I think in highly practical, you know, “How is this going to help me. How can I put this into practice?” So every chapter is kind of geared that way. It’s categorized into four main areas. And so the first part of the book, and it’s intentionally the first part of the book, is about being a leader worth following and it is all about the integrity side of leadership, and the core of the things we talked about earlier that kind of really ground you in the decisions that you make that give you a platform upon what you can lead. The second part of the book is on finding a great team. So what do you do to build a great team? What do you do to find the right people?

How do you go about that because if you are going to have a great company, a great business, a great organization, then you have got to have the right people on the team and so, how do you do that? The third part of the book is about building a great, a healthy culture and it is all about, you know, it’s kind of what we all want. We all want a place where people love to work and where they’re smiling when they come, they are happy to be there and they stay for a long time. And then the fourth part of the book is about leading confidently through a crisis. So a lot of the great leaders we should think of through the years, through history, who we know about are known because of their leadership through some kind of a huge world crisis or organizational crisis. This is how they became known, from how they led through that, and so most of leadership is not that but we have to be prepared for that because those days will come.

John: Now, Tim, what do you see as the biggest disconnect today with leaderships in corporations and where we are as a community as a whole today?

Tim: Oh, disconnect? I would say maybe focusing on… I think the companies which mess up are focusing on profit versus culture. And I know every business needs to figure out a way to pay the bills to create the employees to be profitable. This is true of non-profit as well; they have to figure out how to keep the numbers on the right side of the ledger. But I think if you mess up and you think that profitability is your key to a strong culture versus having a strong culture and the right people and pouring in them being the key to profitability. I think that getting those two messed up will mean the difference between a short lived and a long lasting organization.

John:    I couldn’t agree with you more. So how do you define company culture, Tim?

Tim: Yeah, great question. I think you know there’s positive culture. Every company has culture, right? So there are positive cultures and there are negative cultures, and probably my guess is your listeners have experienced both and can probably give an illustration of both. When you have been in a company where you have been paid a lot of money but you go home stressed out and you don’t look forward to the next day and you hate every moment of it, then you realize, okay, you are in a toxic culture and it is just not worth it. You are thinking, and many people done this, where they leave that and they make much, much less money but they are so much happier because they get into a place where there is a great culture and where there is a low turn over, and where people are happy and the leaders aren’t insecure.

They allow you and give you responsibility. They give you authority. They allow you to lead and people are energized by the mission, or they have a life together outside of office hours. I mean all of those things, I think, define the kind of companies that we read about and that some of us have been privileged to work in.

John:    I have to tell a small anecdote. Twelve years ago, my wife and I, and my business partner, were starting on a journey and we created BeFurniture. Having the ability to start a business, we had a number of major manufacturers and all the big players in the commercial interior business came to us. “You know, we want you to be the distributor.” We met this man named Stan Ashcrim from Muscatine, Iowa, who is now the CEO of H and I. Everybody, as you can imagine, does their pitches, right? We need a female minority-owned firm and we need this, and my wife would patiently sit there and nod her head and I would say, “Well, you ask the questions.” We’d go through the song and dance and then we met Stan. And Stan was like, “I need you as much as you need me.”

The fundamental difference between him and everybody else was that he talked about his faith, his family, and that if it wasn’t right, and you weren’t right with God, he wasn’t really interested. So we went home that night and put everything down and she wrote three letters on a big piece of paper and read, and I was saying, “Look at this and look at that and that and this.” And those three letters were G-O-D, and she handed it to me. He said, “Everything else will follow.” And we have been with him and, you know, I just shared it with you because what you are talking about – he got it. He understood the culture. “Yeah, they are concerned about the profits, what corporation does not but his fundamental belief is based on faith.” And I think if people missed that and if our listeners can take anything away from our interview with Tim today is that without faith, I think you are lost.

Tim:       I think it is the foundation and you know you meet some really, really good people that don’t have that foundation. But if you peel away the edges a little bit you eventually find that. I think you find there are some underlying, very grounded, at least faith-inspired if not faith-grounded, business principles that are kind of supporting that business.

John:    I certainly agree with you. Hey Tim, what experiences have you had when you looked at companies that successfully built their culture and have a strong business and how they leverage it to attract amazing talent and keep the people they have?

Tim:       Yeah, I think so you know my twenty year run at the church in Northern Indiana, Granger Community Church, I really felt like that is and was our story. Where we were able to build this and we had staff who were with us for fifteen to twenty two years or more, who stuck with us and who were like high capacity, high level leaders. Some of them have gone on to other places as well to lead in other organizations as well but I think attracting leadership like that, a positive… a great culture attracts those leaders. A culture where you are trying to attract high capacity leaders and what high capacity leaders want to do is they want to have the chance to lead.

They want to contribute. They want to feel significance. They want to be part of a vision or a mission bigger than themselves but they also want and need to lead and I think so often that as companies are being built, the CEOs, the founder or the person who started the company a lot of times find it very difficult to let loose and let other people come along and lead because it is their baby and they put so much into it. And yet in order to attract high capacity leaders you need to bring them on you. Yes, you acculturate them into the DNA and the vision of the company but then you free them up to lead and to use the best of what they have, to be able to forward the purposes of the company and when you have that, when you have the secure leader at the top who brings on great leaders and allows them to soar, then you can build this thing that can be long lasting and that can outlive yourself.

John:    I can’t agree more. You know in our company we have one rule: to treat people the way you want to be treated and it goes for everybody. And everybody takes that as and just, “Oh that is so Polly Anne and so.” And I’m like grew up in a family and that is our only rule and that doesn’t mean it was always nice because if someone is a jerk, you have to nicely let them know that they are a jerk because people don’t wake up in the morning and say, “Gee I’m going to be a jerk.” But you know to let the emperor know he doesn’t have any clothes on, that is just as hard going both ways, wouldn’t you think? So I can’t tell you how many of our listeners are young and there are professionals who are trying to come out of college and get a job. We have HR people, and something that really resonated with me when I read this is that Tim said, “Resumes are worthless.” Tell me about that.

Tim:       Yeah, so in the business that I’m at now I see hundreds of resumes and part of the core of our business is getting asking people to submit resumes because we are helping people plug in and find jobs. But to me a resume contains two pieces of information that are helpful but they are just not the most important. The helpful pieces that has typically… A typical resume has their educational background and has their experience, so where they worked and where they went to school, what degrees they got and what positions they held. And those are great but when I’m making hiring decisions I would much rather know about people’s skill level. You know, do they have certain tasks, because that doesn’t always show up in what they have done in life.

They have got these sets of skills that are outside of that. Leadership: they are specific, have they built teams, have they lead projects and task and they have they grown a company or have they grown a department or have they grown a product? And their capacity: are they at their limit or do they have more room to grow? You kind of see that with all of their history and you know whether they stopped growing five years ago or whether they are still growing. I want to know about their passion and what makes their heart beat fast. Is it that they are just trying to get their foot on the door or they are just trying to get a pay check, or did they really feel passionate about what I’m hiring them for? Does their heart beat faster than the mission of the organization.

As for their character: can I trust them? Chemistry is huge, more so probably than skills or education. Once those boxes are checked it is like, “Man, do I want to go to work and just face this person from week to week? Am I going to feel good going after the office hours and hanging out? Do I really enjoy my life working with them because I don’t make a difference in productivity and a whole load of things that will contribute to the bottom line of the business?”

John:    Now Tim, you talked about two companies that you feel are good places to work and that one is Facebook and Twitter. Tell me what you based that on and what drives you to that conclusion?

Tim:       What I think what I talked about in the book related to Facebook and Twitter is related to millennials. So I love hiring, you know twenty somethings or those in their early thirties, you know, young people, and giving them an opportunity to learn and grow and to really just kind of establish the basis on which they are going to be leaders for the rest of their lives. I love to pour into young leaders. Now the one thing regarding which I refer to Facebook and Twitter is that a lot of companies and especially maybe older, established companies have these rules. So you know during office hours you have to clock in at eight o’clock and you have to clock out at five o’clock, and when you are here we are going to shut you down.

You can’t use Facebook, you can’t use Twitter, and you can’t use some of these social media tools because you are not going to get work done. I think with today’s millennials and today’s workforce, they value that flexibility more so than just anything else. There was a study done by a marketing firm called Euro RSCG Worldwide. I read about this in Time Magazine, thatthey reported that generation Y workers or what we call the millennials, they won’t accept jobs where they can’t access Facebook. They value flexibility in the workplace much higher than money and they are always connected to their jobs through technology and so when we try to put these really stiff rules and lines around those workers, they’re going to put really stiff lines around us as well and we are not going to get their best. This is versus when we just provide this flexibility. We will get the best from them, and they will stay connected to our customers because they’re connected on Twitter and they will find new ways to engage with our client base because they have these tools and they use them.

John:    I got to tell you I think that sand is shifting beneath corporate Americans’ feet, and they don’t know it, because the millennial are coming and they are not impressed.

Tim:       Yeah, and they are impacting the entire workforce. It is not just a certain age now. I have got working moms where I have them on staff and they want the flexibility to be there when their kids get off the school bus. And man, they will give you their best and they may work after the kids are in bed but by providing some flexibility that works around their lifestyle and their phase of life, we are going to get a whole lot more productivity out of them.

John:    I have got to tell you, the people who have emerging companies who are listening, and the entrepreneurs as you grow a company. I can tell you from personal experience at our firm, if your child has a Christmas play, if there is a sports event, if there is a delayed opening, our philosophy is: if you don’t take care of your family first you are very little use to us.

Tim:  That is so true because if the family falls apart it affects everything.

John:    It just kills everything and why do this and give it your very best everyday if you are not going to do it for the people that you love the most?

Tim:   Absolutely.

John:    I look at it and it’s kind of like we have gone through a process because we started our company where we thought we could build a better solution. We can make a better place to live so we like to be like “where would you like to work?” I don’t really care. If you have an earring in your ear. so what? If you have a beard, so what? You have a tattoo, so what? And it is an open environment, people come and go and I had a visitor that came in from the Midwest, one of my manufacturing partners and he came in and he goes, “Nobody wears suits there.” And I’m like, “You know, we don’t wear suits.” He said, “You don’t wear suits?” I have learned from all the millennials I worked with and my kids that that doesn’t really represent who I am. So I don’t really wear those.

He said, “Well, you have lost control.” So I said, “No, actually I have gained a great deal of clarity and the clarity I gained is that when you think you are in control, you are not. There is a higher power that is always in control. When you let go and go with everybody else, there isn’t a need to be in control.” But, Tim, he looked at me he shook his head, he rubbed his forehead. He said, “I don’t get it.” And I started laughing and he said, “What are you laughing at.” I said, “You know the funny part for me is that it is not my job to make you get it.” I said, “It’s my job that I get it.”  And he said, “I don’t think anyone has ever told me that.” And I just share it with you because I listened to you and it’s so uplifting to hear a guy like you who is out changing the world, one person at a time, who gets it. I just want to ask you, “What tips would you give a young entrepreneur who is starting to hire and build a business around building a great team and a great culture?

Tim:       Yeah, I think I referred to a minute ago but I would come back to that. It’s that when going from a start-up to building a long lasting company or organization around a team it’s almost like it gets too different. It’s very much a different skill set and this is why so many start-ups either don’t make it or the person that has bought it to run the organization long term is not the same person as the start-up entrepreneur. But I think you do see some shining light and shining examples where they are able to make that transition and it’s a matter of, I think, the book says “give up to go up”, that is letting go of certain things in order to build the organization. And beginning and not caring.

When you start-up and you are at it and you are doing everything, there is no one else and you are the person that is running everything and setting the quality levels and excellence levels, and determining what is going to be marked for success and how you are going to go about it and then you bring people on and they’ve got these great ideas and their different ideas than your ideas. It takes a very secure leader to be able to do that and to bring other people into the organization, to rely on them, to let go, but there is just so much that can be brought from that in an organization. It is like you figure out, I think in the book I talk about the loose type principles where you are figuring out what you are going to hold on to tightly. And I think too many leaders pick the wrong things, so they want to hang on to all the decisions. They want to hang on to all the authority type, and they want to hang on to all the spending decisions. I think the things you hang on too tightly are the things like this are our mission. This is what we are going to be focused on.

We are not going to get sidetracked by other things that we could be doing. We are going to stay laser focused. This is our vision. This is what we kind of look like two years off, five years off. Those are the things which are your core values, what you just talked about related to faith and family and valuing employees. So those are the things I am going to hold on to tightly and then loosen the other things, the spending decisions and how we are going to market this product and how we are going to get this thing out to our customers. Those kinds of things, and I think too often, and especially I think that start-ups founders have problems with this. They hang on to the wrong things too tightly and let go of the other things too loosely.

John:    Did you say that’s probably the most common mistake you see made over and over again?

Tim:       Yeah, and I think it comes you know, it comes from a pride, a point of pride. It’s that there is a narcissism that can help you build a company and there is a narcissism that will take it down. And I think that this is the part of narcissism that says, “I’m the smartest. I have got all the right ideas. I’m the only one that can do this. I need to hang on to this.” All of that stuff can tend to really suffocate the company and the growth that it can have.

John:    I feel much better that you said that because I know I’m not the smartest one here. So Tim, I’m going to take you to the lightning round as we near the end of the time you agreed to spend with us. So we are just going to ask you some quick questions and get your feedback. What book changed your life?

Tim:       The right answer would probably be The Bible but you said that one. So I’m just going to say probably the best book I have read over the last year is a book called “Multipliers” by Liz Wiseman. It is a business book. It is all about how leaders can get the best out of their staff, can multiply the gifts of their staff versus leaders who diminish the gifts of their staff.

John:   Thank you. What is your go to quote for inspiration?

Tim:       I don’t know if it is a quote, but I think about it a lot. I’m sure someone much smarter than me said and it is: “build a life that will outlast you.” It is definitely a principle that you will find throughout scripture and that is very much something that is on my mind a lot.

John:    I like that. Okay, what company do you admire the most as it relates to their culture?

Tim:       This is also fresh in my mind because I just started working for him six months ago, but I worked for Vanderblumen Search Group and I’m very highly impressed with the culture. It is a very young company, five years old this month, and just had a tremendous culture. It has twenty six employees so it’s very small, but everyone is on target going for this mission and goal, loving to spend life together, it’s lots of fun and is a great place to work.

John:    Okay, now, if you have to describe culture as it relates to your work as a pastor, what three words would you want to be?

Tim:       I would say be humble, be generous, and be inquisitive. Keep asking questions.

John:    Great. Tim, I can’t thank you enough for honoring us and having you come in and spend some time with us. How can my listeners connect with you?

Tim:       Sure, so related to the book: fairnessisoverrated.com There is a sample chapter to the book. There are links there on how to connect with me on both Twitter and Facebook and other places and some locations that they can actually pick the book up.

John:    Great and just for my listeners, a great book, very uplifting, just fun to read. If you get a chance to get out, get the book and if they want to connect with you directly, Tim.

Tim:       Sure, there is information on that blog also. My blog is leadingsmart.com and they can connect with me there as well. Then as always they can actually email me at leadingsmart.com.

John:    Super… but I never end the show without sharing with my guest my favourite quote by Maya Angelou. It says, “People will forget what you said. People will forget what you did but people will never forget how you made them feel.” And, Tim, we hope we made you feel welcome and honored as our guest and we hope you come back and visit us again.

Tim:  Yeah, thanks for this opportunity, I so appreciate it.

John: Super, have a great day and may God bless you.

Tim:   Thank you.

John:  Bye, bye…

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